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Rotax vs Leopard@ PKC Grand Junction
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dan may



Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 24
Location: United States, California, san marcos

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

get it MM
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TJ Koyen



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1500

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be there on a Leopard regardless.

The Rotax will either be competitive or have the disadvantage many of the Rotax drivers have said it's always had.

Here's your opportunity to rent your Leopard beforehand if you don't have one and want one, instead of having to scramble after practice on Friday to find one like us Leopard drivers had to do in Tucson when we realized we needed a Rotax to stand a chance.

No one knows which engine will be better until halfway through the day Friday. It's all speculation until then.
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Jess Peterson



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 3
Location: United States, Nevada, Sparks

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dan may wrote:
By the way, Jess is 15 lbs over with his leopard


I spot 10 lbs in Parilla.
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Charles Kaneb



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 647
Location: United States, Texas, College Station

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Times Reply with quote

Stacey Cook wrote:
Sat- Qual 55:218 Rotax
Sun Qual- 55:583 Leopard
Sat Heat1- 56:586 Rotax
Sun Heat1- 55:984 Leopard
Sat Heat2- 56:641 Rotax
Sun Heat2-56:461 Leopard
Sat Main- 56:370 Rotax
Sun Main- 56:501 Leopard

Very Intervesting Laughing


From this, it looks like SKUSA has been able to equalize the laptimes of the Leopard and Rotax.

However, in order for the Rotaxes to perform as well in the race as the Leopards, they need to be able to turn FASTER laps in both qualifying and racing trim than a Leopard. The Rotax has poor throttle response, obvious weak spots in the powerband, and poor part-throttle characteristics compared to a Leopard.

In any situation other than two karts running more than a kart-length apart on a clear track, a Leopard driver will have a definite advantage if both engines turn the same lap times. Before the start, a Leopard polewinner can slow down to 4,000 RPM or less and make the Rotax drivers pay for their 34mm carburetor. If she can get side-by-side with the Rotax driver through a slow corner and force both drivers to get out of the gas completely - the Leopard will make an easy pass picking up out of the corner. Down a long straightaway, the Leopard driver can draft the Rotax driver through the 7,000-12,000 RPM powerband and then pass at the end of the straight when the Rotax quits.

I don't know how big the Rotax laptime advantage has to be to give both drivers an even chance. It'll probably have to be over 2/10s to allow a re-pass after the start given its difficulties in traffic. Yes, that means a 28-horsepower Rotax would end up lighter than a 24-horsepower Leopard...
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Rob Howden
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2184
Location: Canada, Ontario, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Manning wrote:
Bitching on the forums?
It's apparent that your inside knowledge of SKUSA's financials are putting you in a position of defense for them. This is the second time in a week you have referenced their cost of doing business. What about the cost to the racers when the engine/weights change?
Why don't you just let us forum followers do our thing until......then just shut it down. BUT...when you inject your own opinion, you are no different than us. Lol


Seriously, Mike?

You're calling me out for providing some factual info on how SKUSA approached their decision to adjust the weights?

Because...to be honest...that would be great. The reason is this....then, you guys would FINALLY realize that you're complaining about a business, not a member-owned organization. This cannot be stated MORE on these forums. If you don't like the product, DON'T BUY IT!!!!! But, the reason you complain is that you DO like the product, and you want to keep buying it.

So, if we keep pushing the notion that it's a product, as a business, if SKUSA believes that their product is souring (for lack of a better term), they need to make changes to it. We often use the restaurant comparison around our offices, so in this case, SKUSA went to Tucson with 50+ customers of their TaG recipe and half loved the taste and the other half hated the new taste (Pro Tour TaG balance 2013). As a business owner, what do you do? Do you leave it the same, or try to adjust the taste so that everyone is, at the least, OK with it? Or, do you let it be, and lose 25% of your customers or more? How would YOU run YOUR business?

Mike, I'm certainly defending SKUSA here on a minor scale, because they're obviously hesitant as all orgs are, to get on here and get caught in the BS. It's the nature of the forums to have people comment from their own perspective only, and without the facts.

And maybe you're right about the forums....maybe they do just need to get shut down. It's food for thought in my head, for sure.
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Mike Manning



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 546
Location: United States, California, Rosamond

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob
Based on your restaurant analogy, I have to agree with you. I love the menu and I love the food. That's cause I love to compete. Next time I post I'll eat a Snickers and drink a Pepsi Embarassed
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Mike Manning
Mike Manning Karting
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Howie Idelson



Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1362
Location: United States, California, Pacific Palisades

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And maybe you're right about the forums....maybe they do just need to get shut down. It's food for thought in my head, for sure.


Since we're talking business here, how do you think shutting down the forums would affect your business? Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Financially speaking, of course.
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Howie Idelson
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Stan Bryniarski



Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go! Keep in mind that Sr and Master ran together.
Saturday TaG Sr (Motors as they finished in class)

Rotax
Rotax
Leopard
Rotax
Rotax

Saturday TaG Master
Rotax
Vortex
Rotax
Motori 7
Leopard
Rotax
Rotax
Rotax

Sunday TaG Sr
Parilla
Rotax
Rotax
Rotax
Leopard
Rotax

Sunday TaG Master
Rotax
Vortex
Leopard
Rotax
Rotax
Leopard
Rotax
Rotax
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Justin Martin



Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What surprises me most is the number of Rotax running SKUSA! I can't believe SKUSA still caters towards leopards.

I'm all for being equal and all, but just surprising to me that they seem to be against Rotax. For instance, adding weight to Rotax rather than taking it from another, or both at the same time. Then there is that seal. It is not Gatorz or any Strict Rotax only org, so why force the seal and not tech the motor like ALL the other engines that are ran. Then there is the question why NOTHING was ever adressed when Rotax were slower at SKUSA events... But once the leopard stopped winning issues were adressed...
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Stewart Willis



Joined: 24 Oct 2008
Posts: 400

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Manning wrote:
Rob
Based on your restaurant analogy, I have to agree with you. I love the menu and I love the food. That's cause I love to compete. Next time I post I'll eat a Snickers and drink a Pepsi Embarassed

Pretty sweet last minute moon walk... Laughing

After your previous post I was betting your pit spot for Pro Tour Grand Junction was going to be in Denver..

Well played sir. Well Played. Wink
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Kirk Skaufel



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 218
Location: United States, California, Santa Maria

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Becareful Mike.... This post may be LOCKED due to "defamatory comments" and "attacks". I know of another one that got LOCKED without the one accused of making "defamatory comments" being able to respond. On the other hand, the Subject that the post was about had every opportunity to respond to the EKN audience...

Rob Howden wrote:
Mike Manning wrote:
Bitching on the forums?
It's apparent that your inside knowledge of SKUSA's financials are putting you in a position of defense for them. This is the second time in a week you have referenced their cost of doing business. What about the cost to the racers when the engine/weights change?
Why don't you just let us forum followers do our thing until......then just shut it down. BUT...when you inject your own opinion, you are no different than us. Lol


Seriously, Mike?

You're calling me out for providing some factual info on how SKUSA approached their decision to adjust the weights?

Because...to be honest...that would be great. The reason is this....then, you guys would FINALLY realize that you're complaining about a business, not a member-owned organization. This cannot be stated MORE on these forums. If you don't like the product, DON'T BUY IT!!!!! But, the reason you complain is that you DO like the product, and you want to keep buying it.

So, if we keep pushing the notion that it's a product, as a business, if SKUSA believes that their product is souring (for lack of a better term), they need to make changes to it. We often use the restaurant comparison around our offices, so in this case, SKUSA went to Tucson with 50+ customers of their TaG recipe and half loved the taste and the other half hated the new taste (Pro Tour TaG balance 2013). As a business owner, what do you do? Do you leave it the same, or try to adjust the taste so that everyone is, at the least, OK with it? Or, do you let it be, and lose 25% of your customers or more? How would YOU run YOUR business?

Mike, I'm certainly defending SKUSA here on a minor scale, because they're obviously hesitant as all orgs are, to get on here and get caught in the BS. It's the nature of the forums to have people comment from their own perspective only, and without the facts.

And maybe you're right about the forums....maybe they do just need to get shut down. It's food for thought in my head, for sure.

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Stewart Willis



Joined: 24 Oct 2008
Posts: 400

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no defamatory comments on Mikes part, however misguided they may be.

Kirk,
I love you man. But, your thread was a bit much, even for my taste.. I know you and your family work your butt off for Santa Maria . It really reminds me of how karting was when I was a kid.

I understand coming to your own defense. ... But... you went full Nagasaki..

Probably not a good idea to continue in this direction.. I would love the opportunity to race SMKA again soon and get some of that Tri-tip.
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Stewart Willis
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Kirk Skaufel



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 218
Location: United States, California, Santa Maria

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stewart,

I have to agree with you to a point... but my thread reflected my personal feelings (not SMKA's). Some may think it was over the top and fueled by emotions, but it was backed with facts/truth.

I hope one day karting can get back to the days when you were a kid.

Thanks for the advice,

Kirk

Stewart Willis wrote:
I see no defamatory comments on Mikes part, however misguided they may be.

Kirk,
I love you man. But, your thread was a bit much, even for my taste.. I know you and your family work your butt off for Santa Maria . It really reminds me of how karting was when I was a kid.

I understand coming to your own defense. ... But... you went full Nagasaki..

Probably not a good idea to continue in this direction.. I would love the opportunity to race SMKA again soon and get some of that Tri-tip.

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My opinions do not reflect those of my family or the company I work for.


Last edited by Kirk Skaufel on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total
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