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MG's Tire Pressure Tunning.
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ric mcdade



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Tires Reply with quote

Jim, you may be answering my question and not know it. I have all the front grip in the world, good rear grip until late in the race. I just thought, I have my battery and box mounted up front at the end of the steering shaft. Maybe moving it back to the side, just in frt of the radiator might take a little grip off the front, which will give a little in the rear.
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Jim McMahon



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2869
Location: United States, St. Paul,

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah memory pyrometer are about $300 now. I think I found my birthday present Smile
Although the readings are best if you have near-new or at least even tread depths.
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Jim McMahon



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Tires Reply with quote

ric mcdade wrote:
Jim, you may be answering my question and not know it. I have all the front grip in the world, good rear grip until late in the race. I just thought, I have my battery and box mounted up front at the end of the steering shaft. Maybe moving it back to the side, just in frt of the radiator might take a little grip off the front, which will give a little in the rear.


It's worth a shot. Even better, if you can scale the kart to get hard numbers on your percentages so you will know what works/doesnt.
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Rob Kozakowski



Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Canada, Alberta, Edmonton

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim McMahon wrote:
At the least, the relative temps across the tread will tell you something. With the tire and steering geometry we have on karts though, you probably wont find optimum performance if you keep tuning to make for all three temps to be close. Tune with the stopwatch, observe and note the temps. You'll probably find the best times come with a little camber burn.


Yep, they'll tell you something. Trying to understand what they're telling you might not be easy to understand though.

And even if you think you're starting to understand, when the conditions change, the new results might not make any sense with what you've seen before.

I'd never advise somebody to not gather additional information if it's easy to do, but tire temp readings in karting aren't anything I'd get too concerned with...

As Jim says, the key is to tune with the stopwatch and driver feedback - remembering that one single fast lap might be great for qualifying, but won't do you much good in a 20 lap race if the other 19 laps suck.

In F1 where they get real-time information on the tires, it's useful to be able to tell the drivers when they might need to drive differently to maximize the potential of the tires (when to push, when to back off, etc), or what adjustments they might make on a pitstop to improve performance on the next set of tires. But this is karting - if you're not going at least 99% all the time with what you've got, you're probably screwed.
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Broque Ward



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 240
Location: United States, Tri state area,

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea I'm starting to lean towards having the tires come up to full grip later in the laps in just guessing here but from what I've seen in other racing some race crews set them up like that to be there at the end to challenge for the lead
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TJ Koyen



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1500

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broque Ward wrote:
Yea I'm starting to lean towards having the tires come up to full grip later in the laps in just guessing here but from what I've seen in other racing some race crews set them up like that to be there at the end to challenge for the lead


And then sometimes the leaders have driven away from you so far that you can't catch back up. It's all a balancing act.
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Broque Ward



Joined: 12 May 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep already thought that def a fine balance
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Ray Lovestead



Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Posts: 206
Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get my tires used from a guy around here that is considered one of the best (Masters in the state, definitely, in the country, maybe). The tires he gives me generally have a totally worn out inner edge (front tires).

He even admitting to use lots of negative camber. So then you'd expect to see higher temps on the inside edge of the tire.

Anyone else "like" to run that way? I've heard people try to keep the wear even on the fronts. But from my experience, it isn't that fastest way.

Ray
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Broque Ward



Joined: 12 May 2013
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Location: United States, Tri state area,

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray Lovestead wrote:
I get my tires used from a guy around here that is considered one of the best (Masters in the state, definitely, in the country, maybe). The tires he gives me generally have a totally worn out inner edge (front tires).

He even admitting to use lots of negative camber. So then you'd expect to see higher temps on the inside edge of the tire.

Anyone else "like" to run that way? I've heard people try to keep the wear even on the fronts. But from my experience, it isn't that fastest way.

Ray


well think about it the faster you go the more chassis flex so to make it neutral and not giving positive camber u have to run more negative camber to compensate for the speed and chassis flex
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Matt Dixon



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 619
Location: United States, California, Norcal

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you are doing that to work on the rear of the kart Broque
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Rob Kozakowski



Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Canada, Alberta, Edmonton

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broque Ward wrote:

well think about it the faster you go the more chassis flex so to make it neutral and not giving positive camber u have to run more negative camber to compensate for the speed and chassis flex


No offense, but... WTF???

Seriously, I'm not following anything you're saying here and can't even begin to dissect whether or not any of the chassis dynamics at work that you might be describing could be realistic or not.

I know you wrote somewhere else that you write fast, but in this case, it appears to have come at the expense of any ability to comprehend what you're saying.
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Rob Kozakowski



Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Canada, Alberta, Edmonton

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray Lovestead wrote:
He even admitting to use lots of negative camber. So then you'd expect to see higher temps on the inside edge of the tire.

Anyone else "like" to run that way? I've heard people try to keep the wear even on the fronts. But from my experience, it isn't that fastest way.


I don't know that I'd say I know of many people running lots of negative camber.

If anything, I've always thought that the general thought is measured unloaded on the stand, you want some positive camber. Loaded on the ground with driver, you're shooting for neutral camber - at least for a general baseline starting point.

That said, with the loads put on the front end of the kart when racing and the geometries built into the front ends, you will generally see more wear on the insides of the tires. That's just reality.

My opinion, I don't "really" care how the tires wear. I care about what the stopwatch tells me.
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TJ Koyen



Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 1500

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broque Ward wrote:

well think about it the faster you go the more chassis flex so to make it neutral and not giving positive camber u have to run more negative camber to compensate for the speed and chassis flex


That's not really how karts work, or at least not how tuning a kart works.

Like Rob said, don't tune for good tire wear, tune for whatever's fastest.

Karts almost always wear the inside of the tire more. I'd same most people always run with a little negative camber. A little negative can help that initial turn-in.
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Broque Ward



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 240
Location: United States, Tri state area,

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broque Ward wrote:


well think about it the faster you go the more chassis flex so to make it neutral and not giving positive camber u have to run more negative camber to compensate for the speed and chassis flex


yea I left a bunch of details out i just wrote a quick response

"well think about it the faster you go the more chassis flex"

the faster you go around a TURN, the more the chassis flexes.

if the kart is setup where you have the perfect rear grip, the kart will three wheel and put more neutral and possibly positive camber on the front outer tire... which if it goes to positive camber can let the tire slide(lose grip) and have the 3 wheel action fall back to 4 wheels due to the 3wheeling changing the front tires camber from negative to neutral or positive.

"so to make it neutral and not giving positive camber u have to run more negative camber to compensate for the speed and chassis flex"

as you get faster and faster and start to get to the limit of the chassis flex and tire grip then you run more negative camber to keep the front outer tire planted down and giving as much grip as possible so the three wheel stays up for the turn.

at least thats what I think it does, it may have come out in a way which maybe mis interpeted im not sure In my mind I understand why hes running lots of negative camber.

I do it too..

im on the left, when I run the front like this even on flat turns I can rail them WOT without worrying about the front high siding if it catches a rut. Ive actually three wheeled my quad around turns and balanced it to not flip me.(quad was setup real low for TT course)


this pic may be a little better
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Matt Dixon



Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 619
Location: United States, California, Norcal

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broque Ward wrote:
at least thats what I think it does, it may have come out in a way which maybe mis interpeted im not sure In my mind I understand why hes running lots of negative camber.


It's not an AtV.
Forget about the outside front. Read what TJ told you about the front.
The neg helps in the back of the kart more, focus on the "3 wheeling"

Talk less, read more or put a question mark at the end...
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