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Driving. (Do we need another section)?
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Ray Lovestead



Joined: 21 Dec 2011
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Location: United States, Colorado, Louisville

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Driving. (Do we need another section)? Reply with quote

I was watching a touring car race (germany) and one of the commentators mentioned that most of the racers that come directly from karting tend to go for a turn that keeps a constant radius. And that these drivers have to learn to brake a little later, turn a little tighter, to get a later apex with full size cars.

I don't think I agree with this, but does anyone else have any input into this commentators ideas?

Ray
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TJ Koyen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Driving. (Do we need another section)? Reply with quote

Ray Lovestead wrote:
I was watching a touring car race (germany) and one of the commentators mentioned that most of the racers that come directly from karting tend to go for a turn that keeps a constant radius. And that these drivers have to learn to brake a little later, turn a little tighter, to get a later apex with full size cars.

I don't think I agree with this, but does anyone else have any input into this commentators ideas?

Ray


Since karting is dependent on keeping the inside rear unloaded and the outside rear loaded, keeping a constant radius in the corner will help to keep the kart stable and rotating efficiently.

In some karting classes, you can easily drive into later apexes and make a shorter, tighter turn input, but something like TaG or Rotax really requires you to modulate the throttle and brake while keeping the kart fairly constant through the corner to keep the inside rear up.
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Jeff Field



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Driving. (Do we need another section)? Reply with quote

Ray Lovestead wrote:
I was watching a touring car race (germany) and one of the commentators mentioned that most of the racers that come directly from karting tend to go for a turn that keeps a constant radius. And that these drivers have to learn to brake a little later, turn a little tighter, to get a later apex with full size cars.

I don't think I agree with this, but does anyone else have any input into this commentators ideas?

Ray


Sounds like a comment related more to a direct drive class. I could see why/how that comment could be accurately applied.

I don't think we'd bother with a driving section. Driving is never up for discussion with these guys. It's always the motor, and often the kart has a problem as well. Laughing
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Ray Lovestead



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume by 'direct drive' you mean non-shifter. I really want to believe that we can drive our karts in a similar fashion to our differentially-equipped brethren. Am I totally wrong? Should I put down the "speed secrets" book now?

Which then starts to beg the question... trail braking? (GOD, who wants to start that diatribe up again)

Ray
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TJ Koyen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray Lovestead wrote:
I assume by 'direct drive' you mean non-shifter. I really want to believe that we can drive our karts in a similar fashion to our differentially-equipped brethren. Am I totally wrong? Should I put down the "speed secrets" book now?

Which then starts to beg the question... trail braking? (GOD, who wants to start that diatribe up again)

Ray


In Yamaha and KPV I drove "like our differentially-equipped brethren" a bit more and it worked okay but when I got to TaG I had to change quite a bit to get the kart to work consistently.

And please no more trail braking debates. Rolling Eyes Laughing

I think it's best to just accept that there are many ways to drive fast, some work better in some situations, others work better in other situations. Two people can have totally different driving styles ad be fighting for the lead lap after lap. There isn't a be-all end-all method.
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Ray Lovestead



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Differing driving 'styles'. Certainly. Like the color of your helmet..

But I can't go on believing that I can drive a corner a different way than someone else and come out with the exact same result. That seems crazy talk.

To me, there are an infinite number of ways around a track. But only one is the fastest way around the track.
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TJ Koyen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray Lovestead wrote:
Differing driving 'styles'. Certainly. Like the color of your helmet..

But I can't go on believing that I can drive a corner a different way than someone else and come out with the exact same result. That seems crazy talk.

To me, there are an infinite number of ways around a track. But only one is the fastest way around the track.


We don't race courses that consist of one corner. Since a lap is a series of corners, it tends to even out over the lap.

Of course if you make a later apex, you'll get a better run out of the corner and down the straight. But by making that later apex, maybe you're giving up some in the middle or entry of the corner when another driver is lower on the track making the corner shorter. But he won't get as good of a run down the following straight.

Do we not see multi-lane racing in NASCAR resulting in cars running totally different lines but similar lap times? Obviously it's a little different in karting, but at the same time the principles apply.
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Ray Lovestead



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got to argue this one. NASCAR? Really.. really.

50% of the race is under caution, then they all come racing out in a huge group and then wreck and go directly back under yellow again.

It's unwatchable.

My favorite has to be GP2. F1 is such a foregone conclusion with the team/car being 80% of the equation. But GP2 have the same engine, tires, chassis. Pretty good stuff.
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TJ Koyen



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, thought we were talking about driving, not which racing series you prefer.

But I'm not a big fan of NASCAR either. Wink
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Ray Lovestead



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK that's it. No more mister nice guy.

Trail braking isn't as fast on a kart. Tucking in a straightaway is unnecessary. And hopping on the exit of a corner can't unbind the rear.

whew.

Ray
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Paul Makarucha



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ Koyen wrote:

Do we not see multi-lane racing in NASCAR resulting in cars running totally different lines but similar lap times? Obviously it's a little different in karting, but at the same time the principles apply.


i just want to make sure the point wasn't lost here:

I hate nascar but TJ makes a good point. You can sometimes take a wider (and therefore longer) line around a corner but maintain higher mph through the corner potentially making you a hair faster down the next straight.

A lot easier with all that banking in crapcar but I've seen it done on flat kart tracks as well.
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Benn Herr



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the commentators were really talking about is that the drivers in the DTM are often "older" and don't have the reactions that new, fresh from karting drivers do. The cars are set up to work better when driven in a calmer manner - like the drivers want. If the series was full of brand new karting hot dogs, the cars would be set up more on the ragged edge, much like F3 cars are - that are full of the latest hot dog kart drivers!
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TJ Koyen



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Makarucha wrote:
TJ Koyen wrote:

Do we not see multi-lane racing in NASCAR resulting in cars running totally different lines but similar lap times? Obviously it's a little different in karting, but at the same time the principles apply.


i just want to make sure the point wasn't lost here:

I hate nascar but TJ makes a good point. You can sometimes take a wider (and therefore longer) line around a corner but maintain higher mph through the corner potentially making you a hair faster down the next straight.

A lot easier with all that banking in crapcar but I've seen it done on flat kart tracks as well.


Obviously all the rubber is on the bottom of the track at apex in a kart race so I'm not necessarily talking about taking a wider line (running the high groove), but just that different lines can work, just giving you an advantage at a different part of the corner.

Usually in a hairpin corner, a driver who is a kart-width off the preferred line, will not go faster because they're off the rubber.
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joseph hollinger



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that when you see cars running two wide (or more) they are both running slower than they would running alone. Slowing down definitely opens up more options.
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gregg boyce



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're driving by reaction you're going slow (unless your name is Giles Villeneuve!!). M Schumacher had average reaction times and it didn't hurt him too much! You need to be anticipating what the car is going to do to be fast!

The difference between the old and young is motivation. Old guys has been there done that with nothing to prove.

There are hundreds of compromises to be made in driving a fast lap. TJ's got this one right.

GB
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